Home ac having problems - freon doesn't seem to be circulating
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From: The Daring Dufas on 8 Apr 2010 21:02 Alexander wrote: > The Daring Dufas wrote: >> Alexander wrote: >>> The Daring Dufas wrote: >>>> The King wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:48:56 -0500, "Steve" <jsteve_n(a)comcast.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> snip >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> In case you missed it, R22 refrigerant that is in the old systems >>>>>> if being phased out, and is rapidly going away. I give it 6-8 >>>>>> months before the *WHOLESALE* cost of R22 is going to jump to $500 >>>>>> for a 30lb jug..... before any mark-up, or the techs time to put >>>>>> it in. Add to that that the manufactures no longer make anything >>>>>> that takes the old refrigerant. You can pay me now, or you can pay >>>>>> me now, *and* pay me later. >>>>>> http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html >>>>>> >>>>>> FWIW, in 2004 when production and importing of R22 was cut back >>>>>> 35%, the wholesale price jumped from $1,600 for a pallet, to >>>>>> $6,800 for a pallet. January 1st of this year, it was cut back an >>>>>> additional 75%, and in January of 2015(5 years from now) there >>>>>> will be an additional 90% cutback. >>>>>> The new systems with the "new" refrigerant (R-410a), use half the >>>>>> amount of refrigerant for the same capacity as the old ones, use a >>>>>> whole lot less energy to run them, and are extremely quiet. Where >>>>>> is there a down side to increasing comfort, and lowering utility >>>>>> bills, as well as getting tax credits, and manufacturer as well as >>>>>> utility company incentives?? >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW... according to Appliance Magazine, the average lifespan of >>>>>> heating and cooling systems is 13 - 17 years. >>>>>> >>>>> I realize economic hard times require a flare in salesman ship but I >>>>> have to take issue with a few things. The first one is the scare >>>>> tactic about price and availability. Price wise r22 costs exactly >>>>> $1.11 more per pound than r410a. Availability wise, r22 will be >>>>> produced until 2020 although at a reduced rate as you said. How much >>>>> the price will actually go up is based on a guess but Im willing to >>>>> bet as r22 goes up r410a keeps pace. >>>>> >>>>> The second one is the quantity of r22 in a 10 seer system vs r410 in >>>>> the new minimal seer rating of 13. The 22 system held (arco aire) for >>>>> instance 4.25# of r22 where as the new unit of the same size (2.5 >>>>> tons) holds 4.10# of r410a. Not even close to half. The cost >>>>> differential to fill both systems is less than five dollars. >>>>> >>>>> That being said, sometimes I read some of the stuff here and wonder, >>>>> is it mere ignorant misrepresentation or borderline dishonesty. I >>>>> also wonder if sometimes when these sales pitches are given if you can >>>>> actually see the sales mans nose growing. >>>> >>>> I recover every ounce of refrigerant I can. If it's not contaminated, >>>> I'm going to reuse it. Somewhere I have a 124 lb R22 recovery cylinder. >>>> I take a little whiff and if it doesn't burn the hair out of my nose, >>>> a good set of filters and some Acid Away makes it usable. >>>> >>>> TDD >>> >>> Why don't you just plastic bag it and sell it to your neighbors kids? >>> The world has a scarcity of whoofers. If they whoof it, it won't >>> damage the ozone and everybody wins. Won't have to buy carbon certs >>> for it either. >> >> I think they're called "huffers" and most of them get off on "toluene" >> which is in the paint that they huff. When the refrigerant in a system >> gets burned, it takes on a horrible searing odor that is what was used >> during WWI as a chemical weapon, phosgene gas, better known as mustard >> gas. If you start brazing connections on a refrigeration system that has >> not had the refrigerant completely removed, you will get a very >> unpleasant whiff of phosgene gas. Some people get off on huffing Freon >> but it can be very deadly. The HVAC supply housed have been selling >> special locking caps for refrigerant service valves that may help stop >> people from easily getting refrigerant from outdoor equipment. >> >> TDD > > > Your customer will balk at the price of Schrader locks. As for the > problem of internal contamination in the system from brazing, will that > is why the manufacturers and professional practices require nitrogen > purging. The oxygen deprivation from inhaling a cloud of cooling gases > has long been a problem. But whoofers cherish the synaptic cross firing > created by dying oxygen deprived braincells. One of the most dangerous > of these gases is R410, as it hangs on the ground and legislation is > being enacted to insure all equipment rooms using this gas has an alarm > system and automatic venting. As for the huffers... I will leave that to > others. I deeply suspect something of that nature is infecting the > political atmosphere in Washington DC. Geez! Who can keep up with the sub-nomenclature that describes all the different addictive behaviors of those who are trying new and creative ways to kill themselves. Years ago, I worked with a guy installing the control and power systems for the first indoor cooling tower in this area. We also did the same for the screw compressors and one of the things I installed was a stationary refrigerant leak detection system. I believe R22 was the refrigerant being used. Enough of that stuff can displace the air in a room and send one to HVAC heaven. Where does an AC tech go when he dies if he is an evil man? Hmmmm, I'll have to think about that one. TDD
From: Alexander on 9 Apr 2010 01:07
The Daring Dufas wrote: > Alexander wrote: >> The Daring Dufas wrote: >>> Alexander wrote: >>>> The Daring Dufas wrote: >>>>> The King wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:48:56 -0500, "Steve" <jsteve_n(a)comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> snip >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In case you missed it, R22 refrigerant that is in the old systems >>>>>>> if being phased out, and is rapidly going away. I give it 6-8 >>>>>>> months before the *WHOLESALE* cost of R22 is going to jump to >>>>>>> $500 for a 30lb jug..... before any mark-up, or the techs time to >>>>>>> put it in. Add to that that the manufactures no longer make >>>>>>> anything that takes the old refrigerant. You can pay me now, or >>>>>>> you can pay me now, *and* pay me later. >>>>>>> http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FWIW, in 2004 when production and importing of R22 was cut back >>>>>>> 35%, the wholesale price jumped from $1,600 for a pallet, to >>>>>>> $6,800 for a pallet. January 1st of this year, it was cut back an >>>>>>> additional 75%, and in January of 2015(5 years from now) there >>>>>>> will be an additional 90% cutback. >>>>>>> The new systems with the "new" refrigerant (R-410a), use half the >>>>>>> amount of refrigerant for the same capacity as the old ones, use >>>>>>> a whole lot less energy to run them, and are extremely quiet. >>>>>>> Where is there a down side to increasing comfort, and lowering >>>>>>> utility bills, as well as getting tax credits, and manufacturer >>>>>>> as well as utility company incentives?? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW... according to Appliance Magazine, the average lifespan of >>>>>>> heating and cooling systems is 13 - 17 years. >>>>>>> >>>>>> I realize economic hard times require a flare in salesman ship but I >>>>>> have to take issue with a few things. The first one is the scare >>>>>> tactic about price and availability. Price wise r22 costs exactly >>>>>> $1.11 more per pound than r410a. Availability wise, r22 will be >>>>>> produced until 2020 although at a reduced rate as you said. How much >>>>>> the price will actually go up is based on a guess but Im willing to >>>>>> bet as r22 goes up r410a keeps pace. >>>>>> >>>>>> The second one is the quantity of r22 in a 10 seer system vs r410 in >>>>>> the new minimal seer rating of 13. The 22 system held (arco aire) >>>>>> for >>>>>> instance 4.25# of r22 where as the new unit of the same size (2.5 >>>>>> tons) holds 4.10# of r410a. Not even close to half. The cost >>>>>> differential to fill both systems is less than five dollars. >>>>>> >>>>>> That being said, sometimes I read some of the stuff here and wonder, >>>>>> is it mere ignorant misrepresentation or borderline dishonesty. I >>>>>> also wonder if sometimes when these sales pitches are given if you >>>>>> can >>>>>> actually see the sales mans nose growing. >>>>> >>>>> I recover every ounce of refrigerant I can. If it's not contaminated, >>>>> I'm going to reuse it. Somewhere I have a 124 lb R22 recovery >>>>> cylinder. >>>>> I take a little whiff and if it doesn't burn the hair out of my nose, >>>>> a good set of filters and some Acid Away makes it usable. >>>>> >>>>> TDD >>>> >>>> Why don't you just plastic bag it and sell it to your neighbors kids? >>>> The world has a scarcity of whoofers. If they whoof it, it won't >>>> damage the ozone and everybody wins. Won't have to buy carbon certs >>>> for it either. >>> >>> I think they're called "huffers" and most of them get off on "toluene" >>> which is in the paint that they huff. When the refrigerant in a system >>> gets burned, it takes on a horrible searing odor that is what was used >>> during WWI as a chemical weapon, phosgene gas, better known as mustard >>> gas. If you start brazing connections on a refrigeration system that has >>> not had the refrigerant completely removed, you will get a very >>> unpleasant whiff of phosgene gas. Some people get off on huffing Freon >>> but it can be very deadly. The HVAC supply housed have been selling >>> special locking caps for refrigerant service valves that may help stop >>> people from easily getting refrigerant from outdoor equipment. >>> >>> TDD >> >> >> Your customer will balk at the price of Schrader locks. As for the >> problem of internal contamination in the system from brazing, will >> that is why the manufacturers and professional practices require >> nitrogen purging. The oxygen deprivation from inhaling a cloud of >> cooling gases >> has long been a problem. But whoofers cherish the synaptic cross >> firing created by dying oxygen deprived braincells. One of the most >> dangerous of these gases is R410, as it hangs on the ground and >> legislation is >> being enacted to insure all equipment rooms using this gas has an >> alarm system and automatic venting. As for the huffers... I will leave >> that to >> others. I deeply suspect something of that nature is infecting the >> political atmosphere in Washington DC. > > Geez! Who can keep up with the sub-nomenclature that describes all the > different addictive behaviors of those who are trying new and creative > ways to kill themselves. Years ago, I worked with a guy installing the > control and power systems for the first indoor cooling tower in this > area. We also did the same for the screw compressors and one of the > things I installed was a stationary refrigerant leak detection system. > I believe R22 was the refrigerant being used. Enough of that stuff can > displace the air in a room and send one to HVAC heaven. Where does an > AC tech go when he dies if he is an evil man? Hmmmm, I'll have to think > about that one. He is reincarnated as Paul and creates a newgroup of his peers.. ;-p > > TDD |