From: sf on
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:31:55 -0500, Les Cargill
<lcargill99(a)comcast.net> wrote:

>In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>much dumber.

Getting dumber? Please expand on that idea.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
From: Rod Speed on
sf wrote
> Rally2xs <rally2xs(a)att.net> wrote

>> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very,
>> very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between.

> Yep, there's a chasm that's only getting wider.

It isnt actually. The only real 'poor' anymore are the
'homeless' and most of them are quite literally insane,
just not in the locked wards we used in the past.

> We cut our throats when we off shored most of our manufacturing.

That was inevitable once china decided that communism wasnt going to fly.

Nothing anyone can do about the massive difference in labor costs.

And the real poor benefit from that very dramatically with the price
of low cost consumer goods being MUCH cheaper as a result too.

There will always be a massive middle class in every modern first and second world country.

Manufacturing is only a very minor employer in any modern first world country, even one like Japan.

We saw the same thing with agriculture before that with previously something like 90%
employed in agriculture in some way, now down to less than 5% and we handled that fine.


From: Les Cargill on
me(a)privacy.net wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill99(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
>> I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
>> under you long enough for that to happen.
>
> please explain ok

Ok.

Programmers should never make things worse. In order to do that,
you have to understand all the people who will be touched by
what you do.

In many cases, that is a lot of different types of people. I
used to think it was about 10 types of people, and it
would take a half a year to understand each enough to where you wouldn't
make patently offensive mistakes.

But now, there's at least twice the number of types of people. 2 times
five is ten.

Most software tools companies last less than six years. So not only
will you have to learn new customers, you'll have to work with a
toolchain that is invariably of lower quality than the one
that went out of business. People go out of software not for being
bad, but for being good. When you are done, you stop.

My estimates are based on *good* programmers. Ones who pretty much
got all they could out of school. The rest will become defensive and
use personal networks to shut down the ones who know what they are
doing.

It used to be the standard was "It works, except for this list of
errors." Now the standard is "It doesn't make anybody mad."

because that's easier to measure. It's noisier. but it's cheap.

--
Les Cargill


From: Les Cargill on
sf wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:31:55 -0500, Les Cargill
> <lcargill99(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>> much dumber.
>
> Getting dumber? Please expand on that idea.
>
>

*whew*. I dunno. That's a big ole post right there.

but thanks for busting me for saying it. I hooked a
shark with that one, didn't I?

People basically only had the disexperience of things like
Disney or Six Flags, or a restaurant before they became
professional customers or customer advocates ( management ).

As the churn on the economy has heightened, you get
more and more people who, that's all they know. It's a
restaurant experience model. They don't know why they don't
like it, they just don't like it.

Now throw in that complaints are easy data to gather, and
pretty quickly, measurement oriented cultures like
corporations might confuse all that noise for data, and
you get what you have today.

That's what I mean by "dumber". But it's driven by the impulse
to worship the child in each of us, instead of doing the
harder work of adults.

--
Les Cargill
From: me on
Les Cargill <lcargill99(a)comcast.net> wrote:

>>> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
>>> I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
>>> under you long enough for that to happen.
>>
>> please explain ok
>
>Ok.
>
>Programmers should never make things worse. In order to do that,
>you have to understand all the people who will be touched by
>what you do.

I think I understand.... not sure

Reason I ask is I'm taking my first ever C++ course and
learning basic programming.... and one thing I have
learned is I would NEVER want to be a programmer as
just to much SITTING!! It seems like a very UNHEALTHY
career? Yes?