From: Rod Speed on
Solar Flare <solaerfart(a)hootmail.invalidated> wrote

> Sometimes GOTO makes code more structured.

Yes, but hardly ever in the situation where Nick is
writing the code for use in usenet communications.

And I said that at the bottom.


> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote
>> Joe Fischer <joe(a)westpointracing.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey(a)iedu.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Joe Fischer" <joe(a)westpointracing.com> wrote:
>>>>> That overlooks the fact that the BASIC text file
>>>>> source code is easier to use by anyone with a copy
>>>>> of a BASIC interpreter, and easier to change parameters,
>>>>> in the shortest possible source code, ___without___
>>>>> compiling.
>>>>
>>>> That's only true if one ignores C interpreters (I do.)
>>>
>>> I tried to learn C for 20 years and didn't know
>>> there was a C interpreter available. :-)
>>>
>>>>> Compiled programs are good for certain things,
>>>>> line number BASIC has it's merits, one being the
>>>>> ability for a user to change it easy.
>>>>
>>>> Integrated development environments (IDEs) make this a
>>>> non-argument.
>>>> They allow making a source change and clicking on a "RUN" button
>>>> to
>>>> automatically compile, link edit, and execute quicker than you can
>>>> type "RUN".
>>>
>>> I think I was using the first IDE compiler in the
>>> early 1980s (if it was Borland Turbo Pascal 2.x).
>>>
>>>>> But there are BASIC compilers that don't
>>>>> need the RUNxxxxx support files, although that
>>>>> defeats the purpose of writing source code that
>>>>> can be translated to human understanding of
>>>>> the calculations.
>>>>
>>>> True; but also a non-argument. If it's written to be readable,
>>>> then
>>>> it will be.
>>>
>>> Right, almost any construct can be made hard
>>> to read, but it is more difficult in line number BASIC
>>> to make it hard to read. In C, it can be made so
>>> that nobody but the programmer understands it,
>>> but this is partly because in C, the included modules
>>> must be understood by the person reading the code.
>>> In line number BASIC, that is not a factor.
>>>
>>>>> When doing any energy calculations, it
>>>>> helps to be able to work directly with the source
>>>>> code and an interpreter.
>>>>
>>>> This pre-supposes that the person writing the code has, at best,
>>>> an
>>>> incomplete understanding of the problem. A person who understands
>>>> the
>>>> problem and the tools being used implements the solution directly.
>>>
>>> It assumes that the person using the sample code
>>> is not a professional programmer, whether or not they
>>> know much about energy or physics.
>>>
>>>>> And there are even people who object to
>>>>> just being the slave of the programmer and
>>>>> just fill in the values when prompted, but
>>>>> to each his own.
>>>>
>>>> "Slave of the programmer" describes an unhealthy environment.
>>>
>>> It works for cases where the inputs are rigidly
>>> required, in the source code posted here that may
>>> not be true, for instance, the area may not be
>>> described as a rectangle, and the code may need
>>> to be changed, try that with a compiled program.
>>>
>>>> In a
>>>> healthy situation, the programmer is the slave of a functional
>>>> specification. If your situation is different, you should be
>>>> considering replacing either the person responsible for the
>>>> specification or the programmer.
>>>
>>> I don't think all programs can be written as strictly
>>> well specified. Which is why line number BASIC was
>>> popular, it allows jumping into the problem, and changing
>>> things along the way.
>>>
>>> All this does not even resemble large team projects
>>> with a rigid specification.
>>>
>>> A sample program in line number BASIC is perfect
>>> for presenting to a wide range of users, who may need
>>> to modify the code to fit a specific use, and one or two
>>> GOTOs might actually make it more readable.
>>
>> Nope, its better to use a proper structured Basic instead and to
>> only use a GOTO when its use makes the code more readable.
>>
>> Functions in spades.


From: Solar Flare on
Can you post some spreadsheet math and see if anybody can use it? Cut
and paste it into their spread sheet?

I wasn't promoting C at all in case you didn't catch that. C is a
horrible language. Visual Basic has fotos in it and an EXITIF is a
goto with a fancy name and a condition.

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4vgu30F1bh417U1(a)mid.individual.net...
> He'd be a lot better off using Visual Basic, and should be using a
> spreadsheet anyway.


From: Solar Flare on
I have mentioned about white space before but he chooses to ignore it.
One has to conclude he wants it cryptic, intentionally, as an
impression technique.

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4vgubuF1bsglmU1(a)mid.individual.net...
> Solar Flare <solaerfart(a)hootmail.invalidated> wrote
>
>> Sometimes GOTO makes code more structured.
>
> Yes, but hardly ever in the situation where Nick is
> writing the code for use in usenet communications.
>
> And I said that at the bottom.
>
>
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote
>>> Joe Fischer <joe(a)westpointracing.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey(a)iedu.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Fischer" <joe(a)westpointracing.com> wrote:
>>>>>> That overlooks the fact that the BASIC text file
>>>>>> source code is easier to use by anyone with a copy
>>>>>> of a BASIC interpreter, and easier to change parameters,
>>>>>> in the shortest possible source code, ___without___
>>>>>> compiling.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's only true if one ignores C interpreters (I do.)
>>>>
>>>> I tried to learn C for 20 years and didn't know
>>>> there was a C interpreter available. :-)
>>>>
>>>>>> Compiled programs are good for certain things,
>>>>>> line number BASIC has it's merits, one being the
>>>>>> ability for a user to change it easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Integrated development environments (IDEs) make this a
>>>>> non-argument.
>>>>> They allow making a source change and clicking on a "RUN" button
>>>>> to
>>>>> automatically compile, link edit, and execute quicker than you
>>>>> can
>>>>> type "RUN".
>>>>
>>>> I think I was using the first IDE compiler in the
>>>> early 1980s (if it was Borland Turbo Pascal 2.x).
>>>>
>>>>>> But there are BASIC compilers that don't
>>>>>> need the RUNxxxxx support files, although that
>>>>>> defeats the purpose of writing source code that
>>>>>> can be translated to human understanding of
>>>>>> the calculations.
>>>>>
>>>>> True; but also a non-argument. If it's written to be readable,
>>>>> then
>>>>> it will be.
>>>>
>>>> Right, almost any construct can be made hard
>>>> to read, but it is more difficult in line number BASIC
>>>> to make it hard to read. In C, it can be made so
>>>> that nobody but the programmer understands it,
>>>> but this is partly because in C, the included modules
>>>> must be understood by the person reading the code.
>>>> In line number BASIC, that is not a factor.
>>>>
>>>>>> When doing any energy calculations, it
>>>>>> helps to be able to work directly with the source
>>>>>> code and an interpreter.
>>>>>
>>>>> This pre-supposes that the person writing the code has, at best,
>>>>> an
>>>>> incomplete understanding of the problem. A person who
>>>>> understands
>>>>> the
>>>>> problem and the tools being used implements the solution
>>>>> directly.
>>>>
>>>> It assumes that the person using the sample code
>>>> is not a professional programmer, whether or not they
>>>> know much about energy or physics.
>>>>
>>>>>> And there are even people who object to
>>>>>> just being the slave of the programmer and
>>>>>> just fill in the values when prompted, but
>>>>>> to each his own.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Slave of the programmer" describes an unhealthy environment.
>>>>
>>>> It works for cases where the inputs are rigidly
>>>> required, in the source code posted here that may
>>>> not be true, for instance, the area may not be
>>>> described as a rectangle, and the code may need
>>>> to be changed, try that with a compiled program.
>>>>
>>>>> In a
>>>>> healthy situation, the programmer is the slave of a functional
>>>>> specification. If your situation is different, you should be
>>>>> considering replacing either the person responsible for the
>>>>> specification or the programmer.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think all programs can be written as strictly
>>>> well specified. Which is why line number BASIC was
>>>> popular, it allows jumping into the problem, and changing
>>>> things along the way.
>>>>
>>>> All this does not even resemble large team projects
>>>> with a rigid specification.
>>>>
>>>> A sample program in line number BASIC is perfect
>>>> for presenting to a wide range of users, who may need
>>>> to modify the code to fit a specific use, and one or two
>>>> GOTOs might actually make it more readable.
>>>
>>> Nope, its better to use a proper structured Basic instead and to
>>> only use a GOTO when its use makes the code more readable.
>>>
>>> Functions in spades.
>
>


From: Rod Speed on
Solar Flare <solaerfart(a)hootmail.invalidated> wrote

> Can you post some spreadsheet math and see if anybody can use it? Cut and paste it into their
> spread sheet?

You post a link to the spreadsheet.

> I wasn't promoting C at all in case you didn't catch that.

That was obvious.

> C is a horrible language.

Thats overstating it, but its certainly not appropriate for the
sort of stuff that Nick posts, just because most cant read it.

> Visual Basic has gotos in it

Yes, but only a fool uses nothing else.

> and an EXITIF is a goto with a fancy name and a condition.

Wrong, it isnt as general as a goto and its a lot more obvious
when reading the code what happens when it gets triggered.


> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote

>> He'd be a lot better off using Visual Basic, and should be using a spreadsheet anyway.


From: Steve O'Hara-Smith on
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:27:10 +1100
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Corse he should be using a spreadsheet, not a progamming language.

Nah a programming language is portable - spreadsheet code is not.

--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/