From: Need a little help please on

"Peter Parry" <peter(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:eagan2lsfkcdpk22mfj0k3iqn486f8g8qe(a)4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:54:34 +0000, bigegg <news(a)hardboiled.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Peter Parry wrote:
>>
>>> That eliminates the contract to buy. The seller has to refund the
>>> buyer all their money, the buyer has to restore the goods to the
>>> seller. Not only does no contract now exist but according to the
>>> DSR's it shall be as if no contract _ever_ existed. If no contract
>>> ever existed then there cannot have been a non paying bidder.
>>>
>>
>>In that case, there's no FVF to pay, so the seller needs to claim it
>>back from ebay, using the only method available, which is via the "NPB"
>>claim form.
>
> If the seller claims the buyer is a NPB then they are making a false
> claim. That eBays automatic system seems to offer no alternative is
> completely irrelevant.
>
>>If the buyer receives a "strike", then this is between the buyer and
>>ebay, and nothing to do with the seller,
>
> It is everything to do with the seller as the seller is the one who
> has instigated it by making the false claim that the bidder was a
> NPB. It is no different from completing a normal sale and then
> trying to get your fees back by claiming the buyer was a NPB. If
> you were the purchaser in such a situation and found yourself with a
> NPB strike what would you do? Would you consider it was nothing to
> do with the seller?
>
> Moreover, how would you cater for the customer who completed the
> transaction, cancelled 7 working days later and returned the goods 29
> days later? You can't suddenly decide you had not been paid.
>
> I'm not sure how eBay's systems could cope with this. They are not
> entitled to their fee from the seller as the contract has been
> rescinded but have already taken it. There doesn't appear to be a
> simple (any?) mechanism for undoing that.
>
> The issue is that eBay don't appear to have a mechanism for catering
> for contracts cancelled under the DSR's (Or if they do, does someone
> know what it is?).
>
> If there is going to be a DSR cancellation it is very much in the
> sellers interest to have the cancellation occur before they despatch
> the goods - that way they don't have to refund the postage as well!
>
>>after all, "no contract _ever_ existed" between the buyer and seller.
>
> If no contract ever existed how can there be a NPB? There was never
> any obligation to buy.
>
> --
> Peter Parry.
> http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/


Agreed, as was pointed out to eBay during the recent 'Power Seller Outreach'
initiative and posted here now several times, the solution put to eBay was
the introduction of a 'Mutual Agreement' for cancellation initiated by the
buyer, to which the seller then accepts, automatically recovering any fees.

Given there is little any business, or in fact any eBay seller, could do to
force any eBay buyer to complete any eBay transaction without
disproportionate cost, effort and expense and the distinct
possibility of ultimate failure to achieve the goal, it would be futile in
most circumstances, and in many illegal to refuse the cancellation.

This solutions works perfectly for all parties, except eBay who have to do
some work to implement it, and once implemented, then will potentially
lose the money to which they were not entitled, but would nethertheless
have most likely retained due to the deliberate designed in awkwardness
and difficulties with the present system.


From: Sid on

"Peter Parry" <peter(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:eagan2lsfkcdpk22mfj0k3iqn486f8g8qe(a)4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:54:34 +0000, bigegg <news(a)hardboiled.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Peter Parry wrote:
>>
>>> That eliminates the contract to buy. The seller has to refund the
>>> buyer all their money, the buyer has to restore the goods to the
>>> seller. Not only does no contract now exist but according to the
>>> DSR's it shall be as if no contract _ever_ existed. If no contract
>>> ever existed then there cannot have been a non paying bidder.
>>>
>>
>>In that case, there's no FVF to pay, so the seller needs to claim it
>>back from ebay, using the only method available, which is via the "NPB"
>>claim form.
>
> If the seller claims the buyer is a NPB then they are making a false
> claim. That eBays automatic system seems to offer no alternative is
> completely irrelevant.
>
>>If the buyer receives a "strike", then this is between the buyer and
>>ebay, and nothing to do with the seller,
>
> It is everything to do with the seller as the seller is the one who
> has instigated it by making the false claim that the bidder was a
> NPB. It is no different from completing a normal sale and then
> trying to get your fees back by claiming the buyer was a NPB. If
> you were the purchaser in such a situation and found yourself with a
> NPB strike what would you do? Would you consider it was nothing to
> do with the seller?
>
> Moreover, how would you cater for the customer who completed the
> transaction, cancelled 7 working days later and returned the goods 29
> days later? You can't suddenly decide you had not been paid.
>
> I'm not sure how eBay's systems could cope with this. They are not
> entitled to their fee from the seller as the contract has been
> rescinded but have already taken it. There doesn't appear to be a
> simple (any?) mechanism for undoing that.
>
> The issue is that eBay don't appear to have a mechanism for catering
> for contracts cancelled under the DSR's (Or if they do, does someone
> know what it is?).

"mutually agreed not to complete" option would get the sellers his fees back
(from ebay), and the buyer would not get a strike.
sellers are fearful of this option, since it requires the buyer to select
the correct option - a "mutual agree not to complete" (or no response from
the buyer within 10 days), any other response to the process by the buyer
and the seller does not get his fees back. a lot of sellers will just go the
non-payer route if they think the buyer is incompetent or a trouble-maker as
it assures them of either getting paid or their fees reimbursed.
Sid


From: bcc97 on

Peter Parry wrote:
> The issue is that eBay don't appear to have a mechanism for catering
> for contracts cancelled under the DSR's (Or if they do, does someone
> know what it is?).

What about 'cancelled by mutual agreement'? If the buyer cancels under
DSR, the seller has no option in law but to agree to that cancellation
(even if they are reluctanct to do so). I don't know whether any fee
credits are available under this option -- can't think that I've ever
used it.

From: Need a little help please on

"Sid" <nospam(a)nospam.co.nospam> wrote in message
news:Y2cdh.42891$bz5.27928(a)fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Peter Parry" <peter(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
> news:eagan2lsfkcdpk22mfj0k3iqn486f8g8qe(a)4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:54:34 +0000, bigegg <news(a)hardboiled.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Peter Parry wrote:
>>>
>>>> That eliminates the contract to buy. The seller has to refund the
>>>> buyer all their money, the buyer has to restore the goods to the
>>>> seller. Not only does no contract now exist but according to the
>>>> DSR's it shall be as if no contract _ever_ existed. If no contract
>>>> ever existed then there cannot have been a non paying bidder.
>>>>
>>>
>>>In that case, there's no FVF to pay, so the seller needs to claim it
>>>back from ebay, using the only method available, which is via the "NPB"
>>>claim form.
>>
>> If the seller claims the buyer is a NPB then they are making a false
>> claim. That eBays automatic system seems to offer no alternative is
>> completely irrelevant.
>>
>>>If the buyer receives a "strike", then this is between the buyer and
>>>ebay, and nothing to do with the seller,
>>
>> It is everything to do with the seller as the seller is the one who
>> has instigated it by making the false claim that the bidder was a
>> NPB. It is no different from completing a normal sale and then
>> trying to get your fees back by claiming the buyer was a NPB. If
>> you were the purchaser in such a situation and found yourself with a
>> NPB strike what would you do? Would you consider it was nothing to
>> do with the seller?
>>
>> Moreover, how would you cater for the customer who completed the
>> transaction, cancelled 7 working days later and returned the goods 29
>> days later? You can't suddenly decide you had not been paid.
>>
>> I'm not sure how eBay's systems could cope with this. They are not
>> entitled to their fee from the seller as the contract has been
>> rescinded but have already taken it. There doesn't appear to be a
>> simple (any?) mechanism for undoing that.
>>
>> The issue is that eBay don't appear to have a mechanism for catering
>> for contracts cancelled under the DSR's (Or if they do, does someone
>> know what it is?).
>
> "mutually agreed not to complete" option would get the sellers his fees
> back (from ebay), and the buyer would not get a strike.
> sellers are fearful of this option, since it requires the buyer to select
> the correct option - a "mutual agree not to complete" (or no response from
> the buyer within 10 days), any other response to the process by the buyer
> and the seller does not get his fees back. a lot of sellers will just go
> the non-payer route if they think the buyer is incompetent or a
> trouble-maker as it assures them of either getting paid or their fees
> reimbursed.
> Sid
>
>

Agreed, as was pointed out to eBay during the recent 'Power Seller Outreach'
initiative and posted here now several times, the solution put to eBay was
the introduction of a 'Mutual Agreement' for cancellation initiated by the
buyer, to which the seller then accepts, automatically recovering any fees.

Given there is little any business, or in fact any eBay seller, could do to
force any eBay buyer to complete any eBay transaction without
disproportionate cost, effort and expense and the distinct
possibility of ultimate failure to achieve the goal, it would be futile in
most circumstances, and in many illegal to refuse the cancellation.

This solutions works perfectly for all parties, except eBay who have to do
some work to implement it, and once implemented, then will potentially
lose the money to which they were not entitled, but would nethertheless
have most likely retained due to the deliberate designed in awkwardness
and difficulties with the present system.


From: Sid on

"Peter Parry" <peter(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:eagan2lsfkcdpk22mfj0k3iqn486f8g8qe(a)4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:54:34 +0000, bigegg <news(a)hardboiled.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Peter Parry wrote:
>>
>>> That eliminates the contract to buy. The seller has to refund the
>>> buyer all their money, the buyer has to restore the goods to the
>>> seller. Not only does no contract now exist but according to the
>>> DSR's it shall be as if no contract _ever_ existed. If no contract
>>> ever existed then there cannot have been a non paying bidder.
>>>
>>
>>In that case, there's no FVF to pay, so the seller needs to claim it
>>back from ebay, using the only method available, which is via the "NPB"
>>claim form.
>
> If the seller claims the buyer is a NPB then they are making a false
> claim. That eBays automatic system seems to offer no alternative is
> completely irrelevant.
>
>>If the buyer receives a "strike", then this is between the buyer and
>>ebay, and nothing to do with the seller,
>
> It is everything to do with the seller as the seller is the one who
> has instigated it by making the false claim that the bidder was a
> NPB. It is no different from completing a normal sale and then
> trying to get your fees back by claiming the buyer was a NPB. If
> you were the purchaser in such a situation and found yourself with a
> NPB strike what would you do? Would you consider it was nothing to
> do with the seller?
>
> Moreover, how would you cater for the customer who completed the
> transaction, cancelled 7 working days later and returned the goods 29
> days later? You can't suddenly decide you had not been paid.
>
> I'm not sure how eBay's systems could cope with this. They are not
> entitled to their fee from the seller as the contract has been
> rescinded but have already taken it. There doesn't appear to be a
> simple (any?) mechanism for undoing that.
>
> The issue is that eBay don't appear to have a mechanism for catering
> for contracts cancelled under the DSR's (Or if they do, does someone
> know what it is?).
>
> If there is going to be a DSR cancellation it is very much in the
> sellers interest to have the cancellation occur before they despatch
> the goods - that way they don't have to refund the postage as well!
>
>>after all, "no contract _ever_ existed" between the buyer and seller.
>
> If no contract ever existed how can there be a NPB? There was never
> any obligation to buy.

surely the DSR relates only to the nulification of any legal contract
between the buyer and the seller, and has nothing to do with how the ebay
system/user agreement works except where the ebay system conflicts with the
DSR. the buyer is protected from any legal action by the seller under the
DSR - that's where the DSR stops isn't it?
the ebay user agreement states that a non-paying bidder (he bid and did not
pay, therefore he is a non paying bidder) will get a strike against his
account, the DSR doesn;t change that.
Sid