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From: Tim Watts on 15 May 2010 14:47 On 15/05/10 19:34, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand > (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to > temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even > stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher. No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several fills over 1-1.5 hours. If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth bothering with. Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up. There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold with a gentle warm up in the machine. -- Tim Watts Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
From: krw on 15 May 2010 14:51 On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:38:29 +0100, Tim Watts <tw(a)dionic.net> wrote: >On 15/05/10 19:03, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > >> Unmetered water is silly. Why don't you use it to generate electricity? Flush >> the "waste" down the street. > >Not silly for me - especially when mixing lots of concrete and plaster >and the resulting washing out :) Of course, I meant silly for the water company. >> >> Dish washers are plumbed to the hot water. They get their water from the same >> place your sink does, and less of it. Many dish washers do have heaters to >> boost the temperature further, something you can't do washing by hand. > >Your general statement has one bad assumption. USA ones may be - nearly >all the new ones here in teh UK (including washing machines) are cold >feed only. Dumb. >> When I lived in Vermont (a *cold* place in hell), my property tax bill was >> larger than my heat bill, so I moved South. ;-) My tax bill is still larger >> than my heating bill, but both have dropped by 75%. ;-) AC in the summer >> makes up for a lot of the missing heat bill, though.
From: Tim Watts on 15 May 2010 14:53 On 15/05/10 19:51, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > Of course, I meant silly for the water company. They'll get round to scrfewing me over eventually so I'm enjoying it while I can. > Dumb. I refer the honourable gentle to my other reply... -- Tim Watts Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
From: Bob Eager on 15 May 2010 14:57 On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:51:15 -0500, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>Your general statement has one bad assumption. USA ones may be - nearly >>all the new ones here in teh UK (including washing machines) are cold >>feed only. > > Dumb. Not at all. I explained about the wastage in the pipe, and someone else has explained it again. -- Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor
From: krw on 15 May 2010 15:03
On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim Watts <tw(a)dionic.net> wrote: >On 15/05/10 19:34, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > >> So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand >> (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to >> temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even >> stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher. > >No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical >model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several >fills over 1-1.5 hours. Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers use significantly less water than washing by hand. >If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per >fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to >heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has >to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth >bothering with. Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the house. >Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to >produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and >cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up. > >There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as >they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to >do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold >with a gentle warm up in the machine. Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater. |