From: s on 7 May 2007 10:36
On May 4, 12:50 pm, w_tom <w_t...(a)usa.net> wrote:
> On May 4, 9:48 am, s <s...(a)mailinator.com> wrote:
> > Agreed, but they(mystery charges, fees and taxes) should be equal for
> > all. If I am charged lot more
> > than some household who use far less than me then either someone is
> > tapping into my water/electric usage
> > or there is a large leakage.
> After doing the 'theoretically it should do this', well, junior high
> school science. Do that theory. Then collect experimental evidence.
> Learn to read the meters. Only when consumption is known
> theoretically AND then confirmed with 'experimental' numbers from
> meters; only then do you have a fact.
> Run certain appliances, know what they are suppose to consume, and
> then see same numbers on the gas, electric, or water meter.
Well, I got a power measuring meter from my local hardware store.
Trouble is I did not know if there
could be any side effects. For instance, main consumption devices are
fridge and electric water heater. But, they are
connected directly to a socket(which hopefully has proper earthing
protection). I did not know if I plug
in the power measuring meter into socket and then connect the fridge
plug to the power measuring meter socket
if it would be safe or not. Same for water electric heater. These
devices consume lot of power
so I did not want to damage them or myself inadvertently. Can anybody
please advise how safe it
is to use them for such devices?
Thanks a lot.
From: s on 7 May 2007 10:42
On May 6, 2:45 pm, "Don K" <dk(a)dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-use...(a)austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> > w_tom wrote:
> >> On May 6, 2:24 am, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...(a)austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> The question wasn't how to effectively protect electronics. The question
> >>> was whether a (typical) surge protector uses any extra electricity.
> >> Then why did you post obvious myths from that howstuffworks.com web
> >> page?
> > You're saying that surge protectors don't commonly use varistors?
> > Yes or no?
> > That's the only thing that's relevant to whether surge protectors
> > draw power.
> > - Logan
> From the tone, I think he's fighting other demons.
Thanks all for your help and time.
I apologize if I caused any confusion or rife by my questions. I did
not intend that. All I wanted to know if
I get a surge protector and it like my friend's shows it is protecting
but if grounded light is not
on how safe that equipment is. I understand it means faulty wiring and
so it is unsafe.
I learned from the posts that power consumption of surge protectors is
I appreciate all who attempted to help me and am sorry if I could not
ask things properly(which
resulted in the confusion).
I was afraid if I get a surge protector and mine also shows it is
protecting but if grounded light is not
on is there anything I could do. My landlord is useless.
Thanks a lot.
From: s on 7 May 2007 11:00
> > On May 4, 7:18 pm, val189 <gwehr...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > 2000 to 3000 gals a month is not bad for two person household.
> > > I use 2000 most months, once a while I'll hit the 3000 mark.
> > > Even with 4 person company for a week, I never hit the 4000. I
> > > replaced toilets
> > > with low flow types, use shut off valve on shower head, no half loads
> > > of dishes
> > > or clothes.
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > I checked with others at work and my utility company. They told me
> > people with two households generally use 1500 per month and my utility
> > company told me 2 people who were staying before me had a usage of
> > 1300 per month. 2600 gallons for my single person usage is far too
> > high. I use the shower for 10mins/day and leave the house at about 8am
> > and arrive at 8-9pm on weekdays. I checked for leaks but could not
> > find any. The main issue is flush is using too much but my landlord
> > will not give me a better one.
> Well, if you have a old-fashioned shower head, one that delivers maybe 5
> gallons per minute, you'd be using 1,500 gallons a month just to shower.
> With a low flow showerhead, maybe half that. The way to test is to turn on
> the shower, place a bucket so that it catches all the water, time it for a
> minute, and measure the result. If the flow is high, low flow showerheads
> are cheap - I got a simple one for $5 a few years ago and it took about 10
> minutes to install.
> The toilet could be leaking - you say you haven't found any leaks, but with
> time, the rim of the pipe leading from the tank to the bowl gets crudded up,
> and the flapper valve deteriorates, and there can be a slow leak that you
> don't notice. Color the water in the tank by pouring a bottle of food
> coloring into it and let it sit overnight undisturbed. If the water in the
> bowl is colored in the morning, you have a slow leak. Drain the tank, clean
> the rim of the pipe, replace the flapper valve. You can buy a vavle at the
> local hardware store for a few bucks, and it shouldn't take more than a few
> minutes to install.
> It doesn't matter what people at work use, or the previous tenants used, it
> matters whay you use. The only way you're going to know what you use is to
> MEASURE it. Right now you're basically imagining your usage and then acting
> as if your fantasies were facts. You may be using more utilities than you
> think. Or maybe not. Measure it an know for sure.
> I frankly don't blame your landlord - it's no skin off his nose whatever
> your utility bills are. I wonder why you're living there - if the place is
> old and out of repair, then you could consider moving to someplace that's
> more up to snuff. Of course, it may cost more. But you can pay for up to
> date fixtures and appliances, or you can pay for utility bills.- Hide quoted text -
Thanks for your reply.
Well, when I moved in I did not know how bad the equipment actually
was. I signed a lease
for 12 months so if I move out early I still have to pay the rent for
remaining months. So, I cannot
move out. People I have talked to say there are some or other problems
apartments also. Their apartment equipment might not be as bad as mine
but if the neighbours
are too noisy their landlord does not care(and thankfully I don't face
noisy neighbours). Some
do have equipment like mine but they generally have 4 or more incomes
in their household so
an extra 60-70$ per month due to old equipment does not matter that
much to them like me. When I told
my landlord that I am losing 60-70$ per month due to his old equipment
he retorted that it
is shameful and lazy on my part to be on single income in today's age
where most people have one full time and two or more part time jobs.
People advise me to pressurize my landlord for upgrading the
and hope he does something though it is a faint hope.
Thanks for your help and time.
From: Bud-- on 7 May 2007 13:53
> Logan Shaw has describes a surge that enters on one wire and leaves
> on another. What happens when a surge arrives on many or all wires?
> A surge completely different from what Logan (and howstuffworks.com)
> discuss. Surge travels through appliance, destructively. Then seeks
> earth ground, destructively, via other paths. This is how even a
> smoke detector may be destroyed because a surge was not earthed BEFORE
> entering the building.
> What would Logan's surge protector see during a typically
> destructive surge? Nothing. No voltage because same voltage is on
> both wires. That is zero volts to the protector while surge passes
> destructively through an adjacent appliance. Yes, some protectors are
> designed to protect from a surge defined by Logan. But those are not
> surges that typically destroy electronics. So a protector
> manufacturer forgets to mention the many types of surges and avoid all
> discussion about earthing.
Nonsense. The US-UL standard for plug�in suppressors requires protection
from H-N, H-G, N-G. That is all possible power connections.
And both the IEEE guide on surges and surge protection at:
and the NIST guide at:
say plug-in suppressors are effective.
Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires needs to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, cable TV, also needs to go
through the protector. These multiport suppressors are described in both
the IEEE and NIST guides.
The IEEE guide explains that plug-in suppressors work primarily by
clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common
ground at the suppressor, not earthing. The guide says earth grounding
To throwout - yes w_ does use google�groups to search for �surge� so he
can share his �wisdom�.
To the OP: if the ground light is not on, a plug�in suppressor will
provide some protection to what is plugged in but such use is not
recommended. It may not be safe. Check if the ground light works by
plugging in to an outlet with a good ground. And a ground lite on a
suppressor or outlet tester does not necessarily indicate a ground is
good. They will indicate good on a high resistance ground.
In older houses in the US circuits did not run a ground wire with the
power wires. This wiring is OK, but anything recent requires a ground
wire. Installing a grounded outlet where there is no ground is not OK.
> On May 5, 2:15 am, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...(a)austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>The excess power consumption would come from the factor that the
>>varistor is never completely "off". That is, it is always creating
>>a tiny load and using up a little bit of power all the time. But
>>the load is really tiny.
An idea MOV would draw no power when �off�.
>>According to this article:
>>the maximum current that the surge protector is allowed to draw,
>>according to Underwriters Laboratories ("UL", as in "UL Listed"),
>>is 0.5 milliamp. Since 0.5 mA = 0.005 A, and since line voltage
>>is nominally 120 V, and since P=IV, the maximum power that would
>>be allowed to be used by a UL Listed surge protector would be
>>0.005 * 120, or 0.6 watts. There are about 8765 hours in a year,
>>so in one year, that would use about 5250 watt-hours in a year.
>>That is about 5.25 kilowatt-hours in a year, and at marginal
>>electric rate of 10 cents/kilowatt hour, that means about 50
>>cents a year. And that is the *maximum* power usage allowed;
>>it would normally be lower than that. And it assumes you have
>>the power strip plugged in and switched on 24 hours a day.
0.5mA = 0.0005A, 1/10th what you used. If your math is right that is 5
cents per year. But great idea calculating the power consumption. The
suppressor pilot lights would draw more the "maximum" for the MOVs.
>>So basically, I wouldn't worry about it. If your bill shows
>>297 kilowatt-hours in a month, a surge protector would be about
>>0.15% of that. You'd be much better off focusing your energy
>>(ha!) on something else.
From: w_tom on 7 May 2007 14:46
I assume you obtained a Kill-a-watt meter. If an appliance plugs
into a wall receptacle, then meter can be placed between appliance and
that receptacle. All connections are made unique so that either meter
can be connected safety or meter is mechanically unable to make that
Water heater is typically hard wired - no plug. No plug means wire
does not mechanically connect to meter. Therefore meter cannot
measure that device.
If appliance can plug into meter, then connection is 100% safe. If
appliance plug will not plug into meter, then appliance is unsafe for
that meter. It's really that simple.
On May 7, 10:36 am, s <s...(a)mailinator.com> wrote:
> Well, I got a power measuring meter from my local hardware store.
> Trouble is I did not know if there
> could be any side effects. For instance, main consumption devices are
> fridge and electric water heater. But, they are
> connected directly to a socket(which hopefully has proper earthing
> protection). I did not know if I plug
> in the power measuring meter into socket and then connect the fridge
> plug to the power measuring meter socket
> if it would be safe or not. Same for water electric heater. These
> devices consume lot of power
> so I did not want to damage them or myself inadvertently. Can anybody
> please advise how safe it
> is to use them for such devices?